Serial, Episode 5: ROUTE TALK By Amanda, Margaret, and Stefan
Episode 5 of the Serial Podcast, Route Talk, focuses on whether or not it would have been possible for Adnan to kill Hae in the given time. Adnan did not believe that it could be done, as he would only have 21 minutes to leave the high school, get into his car, wait for the buses to depart first, drive to Best Buy, murder Hae, put the body in the trunk, and call Jay. Sarah Koenig and producer Dana Chivvis attempt to retrace these steps, and drive to Best Buy in about 18 minutes, leaving 3 minutes for Adnan to kill Hae and move the body to the trunk. However, this was with zero mistakes, zero hesitation, and knowing exactly where they had to go. If a bus was slightly later leaving the school, traffic was worse, or Hae put up a fight, Adnan would not have been able to kill Hae in the given time.
Back to the route, Sarah and Dana now had to go to Patapsco State Park. They only have 10-15 minutes to go to the park, smoke, and then go back to track practice. According to Jay, he and Adnan stayed there for 20-30 minutes, which would have to make Adnan extremely late to track. This Patapsco trip makes no sense in the timeline, but Jay described it vividly during the testimony, which only leads to more confusion around where they went. Sarah arrives at the track field at 4:45 PM, which is 45 minutes after it started. Jay’s story gets even less credible when he claims that Adnan called someone shortly before being dropped off at track practice and that the conversation was in Arabic. What is the problem? Adnan doesn’t speak Arabic.
Adnan’s case was the first in Maryland to use cell tower pings as evidence. As such, it used new techniques, but they still use the same method today, according to two engineering professors at Purdue and Stanford University. A cell phone expert went to the important parts of the story and checked the cell towers, for a total of 14 positions. The prosecution, however, only asked about four of the locations since the rest did not help their case. The towers at the time and Jay’s story don’t match with each other between 12:07 PM and 6:07 PM. That is the period of time that matters- where Jay and Adnan were during the murder. After that period, the towers and times match up with Jay’s story. The ping at the Leakin Park tower, at 7:16 PM, could have been at Patrick’s house, a strip, or at Leakin Park. These cell records and towers are bad for both Adnan and Jay, as both have moments that do not match up.
This episode also mentions more inconsistencies in Jay’s statements. One of which was the phonebooth Adnan supposedly called him with. Jay claimed that when he pulled in to Best Buy Adnan was waiting in the phone booth with red gloves on. The manager of Best Buy cannot find any records of this phone booth, and no employees can remember it. Also, why would Adnan call Jay, tell him to pick him up at Best Buy, and then stay inside the phone booth until Jay gets there? Shouldn’t he have gone back to the car?
Jay gave the police an itinerary of where he drove on January 13th, the day of the murder. Sarah and Dana follow Jay’s path in an attempt to match it with the times given for calls on Adnan’s phone. They began at 2:51 and head towards the I-70 Park and Ride, where Adnan and Jay left Hae’s car. The drive took Sarah and Dana 11 minutes, so they arrived shortly after 3 PM. Jay then claimed that the called Patrick in search of weed, but the cell records say that the call took place at 3:59 PM. Jay changed his story for the testimony, saying that he called Jenn at 3:21 to ask where Patrick was, but Jenn said that never happened. When they could not find Patrick, Adnan and Jay went to Forest Park instead. Around this time Adnan called a girl he was flirting with, Nisha, and talked for around 2 minutes. This call is important because Adnan gave Jay the phone so he could talk with Nisha, supposedly at the West Forest Park golf course. Unfortunately for Jay’s story, the cell tower pinged by this call was not the one near the golf course; it was the one near the Best Buy. In fact, all four calls between 3 and 4 PM pinged that Best Buy tower, even though Jay claims they had already left.
(Patapsco Valley State Park)
Back to the route, Sarah and Dana now had to go to Patapsco State Park. They only have 10-15 minutes to go to the park, smoke, and then go back to track practice. According to Jay, he and Adnan stayed there for 20-30 minutes, which would have to make Adnan extremely late to track. This Patapsco trip makes no sense in the timeline, but Jay described it vividly during the testimony, which only leads to more confusion around where they went. Sarah arrives at the track field at 4:45 PM, which is 45 minutes after it started. Jay’s story gets even less credible when he claims that Adnan called someone shortly before being dropped off at track practice and that the conversation was in Arabic. What is the problem? Adnan doesn’t speak Arabic.
Jay picked Adnan up from track practice at 6PM and saw Adnan saying goodbye to a friend from track. That friend was Will who was never contacted by either the prosecution or the defense, and when Sarah contacts him, 15 years later, he could not remember the conversation. He “didn’t even know that I was a part of anything until you just told me that. Like, no one ever contacted me about anything.” However, he does outline the fact that nobody ever had a reason to be late, unless it was a family emergency, as it started almost 2 hours after school ended. The track coach, Michael Psy, says that he would have remembered if Adnan was late to track (he didn’t), which makes the timeline very different from what Jay claimed.
(Woodlawn High School)
Adnan’s case was the first in Maryland to use cell tower pings as evidence. As such, it used new techniques, but they still use the same method today, according to two engineering professors at Purdue and Stanford University. A cell phone expert went to the important parts of the story and checked the cell towers, for a total of 14 positions. The prosecution, however, only asked about four of the locations since the rest did not help their case. The towers at the time and Jay’s story don’t match with each other between 12:07 PM and 6:07 PM. That is the period of time that matters- where Jay and Adnan were during the murder. After that period, the towers and times match up with Jay’s story. The ping at the Leakin Park tower, at 7:16 PM, could have been at Patrick’s house, a strip, or at Leakin Park. These cell records and towers are bad for both Adnan and Jay, as both have moments that do not match up.
One of the most troublesome calls was the 2:36 call that the prosecution says brings Jay to Best Buy. However, Jay never said that the call was that early-instead he claims around 3:45 PM was when he got the call, and Jenn says that was when he left her house. Adnan also has an alibi for during the murder- Asia’s letters, claiming Adnan was at the library.
Discussion Questions:
1) Do you think Jay and Adnan went to Patapsco State Park? Explain why or why not.
2) What do you think they did there or do instead? Why?
3) Is basing the case on a nonreliable witness and phone record accurate and just? Explain.
4) What did the activity teach you?
1)I do not think that they went to Patapsco park. I think that jay needed something to fill the time to make events line up will other evidence that had already been documented. The reason for his story changing later would be because Jay realized that the timeline was starting to be messed up.
ReplyDelete2) I think that they went about their way just driving around aimlessly because for some reason the they both like to drive and sometimes look for weed.
3) It is not accurate or fair in any way. This case is a glorified "he said she said" argument with a murder. Jay has way too many inconsistencies and because this was the first case in the state to use phone records the prosecution should have had other evidence incase the cell records did not hold up.
4) It showed how not everyone can do everything in the same amount of time and therefore the whole 21 minutes idea does not hold up well. Also, the inconsistencies definitely affected the case and the route that we took.
1. I don't think that they actually went to that particular park, I think that Jay used that trip as a time filler in his story. He completely failed to mention it during the trial later on because either it didn't happen, or if it did, it was really insignificant.
ReplyDelete2. I don't think they did anything in particular, they just drover around to look for weed like they had done many times before. The only reason I don't think they went to that particular park is because it is so far away it seems unreasonable.
3. I think that their use of the evidence while incredibly unfair, is reasonable given their lack of more tangible evidence. It was all they had to use and they had to present something. Personally, I believe that their evidence was not nearly enough to convict anyone of murder and as Dr. Brigman pointed out, cell records aren't really all they're cracked up to be in terms of evidence.
4. The class activity was really interesting and it showed me that retracing the trail of an alibi might not be totally helpful because nothing can really model what happened on that particular day. While helpful, it is not really strong evidence.
1. I think that they went to Patapsco State Park, but it was probably irrelevant to the story. The only purpose of that trip was apparently so that Adnan could tell Jay that Hae was dead. I think that it was probably easy for Jay to omit that part. I feel like this part only goes to show that Jay has an unreliable memory. I don't think that he had any obvious motive to make up an entire part of the trip.
ReplyDelete2. They probably just smoked some weed there, and maybe Adnan told Jay that Hae was dead. Previously, their relationship primarily revolved around weed and just hanging out. I feel like they would not have changed their behavior much when they went to the park especially if Jay was as calm about the murder as he seems to be.
3. That case was not convicted fairly. The technology used on the cell phones did not completely corroborate their case which they just overlooked. Without sufficient evidence, they should not have been able to prosecute. Whoever decided to prosecute Adnan did it on little evidence, and he was probably not guilty. Due to them prosecuting without much evidence an innocent man probably spent over a decade in jail.
4. The activity taught me that it is difficult to recreate an alibi in regards to timing. Some people just naturally go faster, and they cannot recreate the exact conditions that happened on the day of the crime. Even though Sarah Koenig and Dana managed to sort of recreate the conditions, they still don't know exactly what happened that day so it would not be a perfect recreation.
1. I think that they did go to Patapsco state park, and Jay is changing the story from what actually happens to what the state says happens. It would help out the State's case, and it would also explain a lot of the inconsistencies present in terms of Jay's Testimony.
ReplyDelete2. I think that Jay told the truth in terms of what happened, though I think it would be Jay telling Adnan what happened and how he killed her, probably more or less trying to justify it to Adnan while planning to stab him in the back.
3. This entire case is not accurate and just. In the US court system, you are supposedly innocent until proven guilty. In recent times and then, this value seems to have fallen apart. The information given was in no way even close to conclusive, and there is no way that Adnan should have been convicted based on evidence given.
4. The activity showed that, even though you may know a specific route to take, it will be different every time. When looking at a timeline, there should be a range if trying to recreate it, the time depending on the length of the route itself.
1) No, I don't think they went to Petapsco State Park. According to Sarah Koenig's experience traversing the route Jay provided, they wouldn't have had the time to take such a large detour before track practice (and it would've been pretty memorable for the coach had Adnan been so late).
ReplyDelete2) I don't know, there simply isn't enough evidence to know what exactly they were doing during that time. If I had to guess, they were probably getting high somewhere nearby.
3) No, it is not reliable or just. By trusting the words of an unreliable witness, they aren't showing that they are 100% sure that Adnan is guilty. Convicting him of such a heavy crime without strong evidence is childish and will almost certainly ruin his life if he remains in prison.
4) The activity taught me how difficult it is to meet time constraints without complications, and how unlikely it is that someone so inexperienced would commit a murder in such limited time.
1. I do not believe that Jay and Adnan went to Petapsco State Park. I have two possible explanations for why Jat included this in what he said. Either Jay was meging two days together due to simple forgetfullness, or he needed something to fill in time so that the rest of his account lined up with present evidence.
ReplyDelete2. They possibly were just taking a drive and smoking weed, or hanging out with friends... and smoking weed.
3. As the phone record and unreliable source were the only two pieces of possible evidence, Adnan was the most probable suspect. This does not mean that the probability was high enough to accuse him, but someone had to be accused so the courts ruled against the only real suspect in the case that had possible witnesses as well as records matching up with eyewitness accounts.
4. The activity managed to show me that while a situation may be possible to happen, that does not mean that it is likely in any way and that this such information can be twisted to suit both sides of an argument.
1. I don’t believe the trip to the park happened, simply because I am of the opinion that jays testimony was, putting it lightly, a loud of horse crap. I think that most, if not all of it was fabricated, and that it has little to no merit beyond making jay look super guilty.
ReplyDelete2. I have no idea what they did instead. I would be inclined to say that Adnan went to track practice, but that is simply because his is the only other version of events and I don’t trust jays.
3. While the phone record was a good start, all evidence from that is extremely circumstantial. In addition, jays shoddy story caves in at even the slightest probing, and therefore should probably be ignored almost completely.
4. I learned that Stoof’s abnormally long limbs allow him to move at superhuman speed.
1.) I do believe that Jay and Adnan went to Patabsco State Park. While the evidence that Sarah points out of not having enough time is damning, the margin of error off of what the time permits is low. This could be made up for by simply driving over the speed limit. As an "irresponsible adolescent" I know that on my home road, one that I travel very very often, I do not always follow speed laws, and these two boys certainly aren't ones to follow all of teh rules.
ReplyDelete2.) When they got there, who knows. In all likelyhood they were probably just getting stoned on a rock somewhere (ha ... see what I did there ... stone ... rock ... nvm).
3.) Sure, the phone record and witness are not the most rock solid pieces of evidence. That said, without any evidence that directly disproves this story, their timeline was suitable enough for them to achieve their goal: conviction.
4.) To be completely honest about the activity, I felt that it added very little to the presentation today. I did,'t really get anything out of it, as it was not very precise in it's execution. Had you managed to get the times, distances, and speeds to scale then it would have been much more valuable, but as it stands I gained nothing from the activity itself. Sorry :(
1. I do not think that they went to Petapsco State Park because it does not seem possible for it to have happened. The timeline does not allow for enough time for this to have happened, and the fact that Jay left it out of his testimony at trials proves that he probably made it up. A possible reason that he might have made it up would be to add time to his story because he was worried that his timeline wouldn't make sense. Then, when the story did not fit in, he took it out.
ReplyDelete2. I honestly have no idea. If I believe Jay's story, that Adnan really did kill Hae, then they probably just drove around for a while. They also may have done something illegal that they shouldn't have and that's why Jay covered it up with the park story. On the other hand, if I choose to believe Adnan, then they were not together before practice, meaning that Jay went and smoked alone. Maybe he killed Hae and went to the park by himself to smoke and contemplate where to dispose of the body.
3. I do not think that the evidence for this trial is accurate and just at all. I do not think that the prosecution was able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Adnan killed Hae because the only witness, a witness who did not actually see the murder, is someone who has lied on numerous occasions. He could have fabricated the story to frame Adnan and then forgotten the details, and there would be no other proof that Adnan was the killer. For the phone records, only 4/14 parts show that Adnan might be lying. However, the towers could have picked up calls from locations far away from the locations Jay claims that they were at. Therefore, I think that this evidence is flaky and should not have been enough to sentence someone.
4. I have to agree with what Jialan said in class, that while the activity was fun, it does not directly relate to the murder of Hae Lee and whether Adnan could have killed her or not. We simply walked around the school, pop balloons, and run up stairs while he had to drive, had traffic, and killed someone. I do see that the point of the activity was to show that things can take longer when you don't know exactly what you're doing, so I do think that this is something I learned.
1) No I do not think that they managed to make it to Patapsco Park. I believe that it was something Jay added to his case to account for sometime that he could not fill a different way at that time. However later he found a different way to account for time that day and changed his story to fit this new version. As Sarah said, driving at a normal pace, as one would be want to do to avoid attention when one has a freshly murdered cadaver in their trunk, they would not be able to make it back for Adnan to be seen at track practice, something that Jay adamantly states the Adnan saw as something that needed to be done to have an alibi.
ReplyDelete2) If they did end up there they probably would have smoked weed before heading to track, but this seems unlikely since it would make Adnan noticeably late and ruin track as an alibi. If Adnan is innocent then I believe that Jay was off murdering Hae and framing Adnan and that Adnan was either at the library or in town and then at track. If Jay is telling some version of the truth then he is obviously missing a lot of details that would better align with the cell data and still went out of his way to destroy any physical evidence of the crime.
3) In this case no. While cellphone evidence can be helpful in finding the truth, throwing away 10/14 of it to make it fit a story for an unreliable witness is not a good use of it. Having evidence and then being forced to make it help an ever changing story is not something that a good prosecutor should be trying to do.
4) Truthfully not much. It was a good concept but I feel that it would have worked better if either everyone could go at their own or if you tied it back to the mismanagement of time that appears in Jay's story. It was fun but it could have been better.
1) Do you think Jay and Adnan went to Patapsco State Park? Explain why or why not.
ReplyDeleteI do not really think they Jay and Adnan went to Patapsco State Park. Though proved narrowly possible there is really only Jay's provenly flip floppy testimony to put them there. Its not impossible though. I would not be able to make a concrete judgement about it with the little evidence for or against the event. Some things are harder then deciding yes or no.
2) What do you think they did there or do instead? Why?
If they were there they were probably smoking weed. Its not like they were their to birdwatch or something (but what do I know). I don't know if Jay was hesitant to initially tell the police he was out in the public park smoking weed and he never went on that but ultimately that is probably what they were doing.
3) Is basing the case on a nonreliable witness and phone record accurate and just? Explain
No. But a girl was murdered and the prime suspect had more than just being a minority against him. The prosecution presented their case and the defense did there complete and utter best effort... and ultimately the evidance was enough to convince the jury. From the narrative presented by PBS so far that evidance is not the beyond a shaddow of a doubt tv shows have instilled with the idea of justice.
4) What did the activity teach you?
The activity tought me just how unreliable and different first person accounts can be. Everybody has a different time. There were so many factors effecting us as we went through the goofy activities just as there was in the case such as traffic, speed limits, other people, schedules, and the randominess of the world. If the activity tought me one things its that as much as we can try to prove or make sense of the world there will always be some things out of our control.
1) I don't think so. The park was too far away, and there wouldn't be enough time to go there, smoke, and make it back on time for track practice.
ReplyDelete2) I think that the whole trip to the state park was fabricated, in order to help Jay's case. I think that instead, Adnan went to Track practice.
3) I don't think that it's just. In america, people are innocent unless proven guilty. I don't think that there was enough evidence to convict Adnan of the crime. One eye-witness report and unreliable phone records aren't nearly strong enough of evidence.
4) The activity of running through all the places that Adnan and Jay went to proved to be useful in the sense that it teaches us how going somewhere takes longer than many think, shining a light on how Adnan may have not had enough time to do the things that Jay said Adnan did.