SERIAL EPISODE 8: THE DEAL WITH JAY BY MITCHELL AND WILL
Episode 8 of the Serial podcast once again brings the focus of the episode to Jay Wilds. Jay is the man who's testimony was used by the prosecution to convict Andan Syed in the murder of Hae Min Lee. Episode 8 paints a more defined picture of Jay through interviews with many of his friends from High School. This gives greater insight into who Jay is and why he took the actions that he did. For as much as this episodes illuminates, it also reveals more obstacles to block Koenig's progress.
It seems fitting to talk more about the titular man himself, Jay Wilds. As was explained in previous episodes Jay went to the same high school as Adnan, Hae, and the rest of the people that have thus far been important in Koenig's investigation. However in this episode more information is revealed about Jay. Jay was what was referred to as "gen-pop", or a local that went to their high school, instead of being part of the magnet program. Many of his classmates described him as different, but that he was honest about that part of himself and embraced it. To them he seemed like a nice guy.
He played Lacrosse, had a girlfriend, could be goofy at times and loved animals. In addition to maintaining a presence among his fellow classmates, Jay would work to help support his mother and grandparents. He had the kind of traits that you look at and think that he must be a great guy. However there were some students and even a teacher that remembered Jay could come across as scary, instead of polite, nice, or goofy. Some of his friends even claimed that Jay would lie about things.
Something that shows this darker side of Jay is a story that a friend of his, Chris told Sarah Koenig. For naming sake let's call it the Knife Story.
What Chris tells Koenig is that he worked at a knife shop and that at one point he had given Jay a knife. On one day outside of Chris's cousins house Jay asked Chris if he had ever been stabbed before. When Chris replied that he had never been stabbed before Jay took out the knife and attempted to stab him. As Chris remembered Jay said something along the lines of, "Oh I'm not gonna stab you deep, but you've never been stabbed before. You need to know what it's like."
While Chris remembers this in a humorous light due to his friendship with Jay it may have been a moment when the murderer that Jay may be came out. Whatever this Knife Story says about their friendship know that it did exist and that is why Jay confided in Chris another version of the events involving Adnan and Hae's murder.
So this new version, which will be referred to as Chris's version, begins with Jay being out at a pool hall, either VIP's or Blue-jay's, on route 40 in Catonsville. Jay while there gets a call from Adnan with the message that they needed to talk. Jay then tells Adnan where he is and soon after Adnan drives up to where Jay is shooting pool. Adnan after some convincing gets Jay outside and shows him the body in the trunk of the car, which is either Adnan's or Hae Lee's. Adnan then claims that Jay is now an accessory and Jay cannot go to the police due to his other illegal activities, as well as possible threats to Stepahnie. Jay then helps Adnan bury Hae at Leakin Park, a place that Chris thinks Jay suggested.
From the conversation between Adnan and Jay it is revealed that in this set of events Adnan confronted Hae about flirting with a car salesman outside of Woodlawn Public Library, and snapped then killing her. A place where Aisha claims to have seen Adnan that day. Chris also claims that Jay was worried over Adnan threatening to hurt Stephanie if he wouldn't comply. Chris brings up times when Jay had been directed told by Adnan that he would hurt Stephanie if Jay wasn't careful. Jay himself had even told Stephanie to avoid Adnan due to these threats.
Laura, a friend of Stephanie, confirmed that the relationship between Jay and Stephanie was important to each of them. Stephanie was even going against her parents who did not approve of Jay. This shows that if Chris's version is true that Adnan knew exactly what to say and who to threaten to get Jay's help.
Jen Pusateri claims that she believed that Jay was telling the truth about the crime. She acknowledged that Jay was known to lie occasionally but not about the big things. She doesn't believe that any of Jay's versions of the truth are perfect but she does believe that the crime happened how he said it did.
What Chris tells Koenig is that he worked at a knife shop and that at one point he had given Jay a knife. On one day outside of Chris's cousins house Jay asked Chris if he had ever been stabbed before. When Chris replied that he had never been stabbed before Jay took out the knife and attempted to stab him. As Chris remembered Jay said something along the lines of, "Oh I'm not gonna stab you deep, but you've never been stabbed before. You need to know what it's like."
While Chris remembers this in a humorous light due to his friendship with Jay it may have been a moment when the murderer that Jay may be came out. Whatever this Knife Story says about their friendship know that it did exist and that is why Jay confided in Chris another version of the events involving Adnan and Hae's murder.
So this new version, which will be referred to as Chris's version, begins with Jay being out at a pool hall, either VIP's or Blue-jay's, on route 40 in Catonsville. Jay while there gets a call from Adnan with the message that they needed to talk. Jay then tells Adnan where he is and soon after Adnan drives up to where Jay is shooting pool. Adnan after some convincing gets Jay outside and shows him the body in the trunk of the car, which is either Adnan's or Hae Lee's. Adnan then claims that Jay is now an accessory and Jay cannot go to the police due to his other illegal activities, as well as possible threats to Stepahnie. Jay then helps Adnan bury Hae at Leakin Park, a place that Chris thinks Jay suggested.
From the conversation between Adnan and Jay it is revealed that in this set of events Adnan confronted Hae about flirting with a car salesman outside of Woodlawn Public Library, and snapped then killing her. A place where Aisha claims to have seen Adnan that day. Chris also claims that Jay was worried over Adnan threatening to hurt Stephanie if he wouldn't comply. Chris brings up times when Jay had been directed told by Adnan that he would hurt Stephanie if Jay wasn't careful. Jay himself had even told Stephanie to avoid Adnan due to these threats.
Laura, a friend of Stephanie, confirmed that the relationship between Jay and Stephanie was important to each of them. Stephanie was even going against her parents who did not approve of Jay. This shows that if Chris's version is true that Adnan knew exactly what to say and who to threaten to get Jay's help.
Jen Pusateri claims that she believed that Jay was telling the truth about the crime. She acknowledged that Jay was known to lie occasionally but not about the big things. She doesn't believe that any of Jay's versions of the truth are perfect but she does believe that the crime happened how he said it did.
Koenig's meeting with Jen presents a good point about how Jay's story always seems to be shifting, but in this episode the reason for that may have been found. A possible candidate for the changing of the story, besides Jay's affinity to lie, are what Kownig calls the Black Hole Hours. These hours are the hours between when the police bring in Jay and when they start the recording. At the time it was standard procedure to only start recording after awhile but this gives hours of time where the detectives can change Jay's testimony. Either intentionally or not the detectives inform Jay of what they believe about the case and that drives what he says. In addition to that the police are trying to form a case, which is different from uncovering the truth. They want information that either supports their theory or completely nullifies it forcing them to approach the case form a different angle. Nothing that Jay says directly disproves his overarching story of Adnan killing Hae and forcing him into helping dispose of her body.
Many people such as the Judge presiding over the case as well as the prosecutor believed that Jay was honest during the trial and commended him for how he made it through it. This along with Koenig learning that the Jury held the fact that Adnan did not testify in his defense at the trial sheds light on why the Jury were so willing to sentence Adnan to prison.
This episode is the first time that Koenig was able to talk with Jay and was able to learn exactly how he felt about the case. She saw how passionate Jay was about the case and how he believed with absolute certainty that Adnan had killed Hae. Jay even expressed rage at the thought of Adnan pretending to be innocent. As he put it, "Who else could it have done it?" Who else indeed.
Please respond to the Discussion Questions below.
Many people such as the Judge presiding over the case as well as the prosecutor believed that Jay was honest during the trial and commended him for how he made it through it. This along with Koenig learning that the Jury held the fact that Adnan did not testify in his defense at the trial sheds light on why the Jury were so willing to sentence Adnan to prison.
This episode is the first time that Koenig was able to talk with Jay and was able to learn exactly how he felt about the case. She saw how passionate Jay was about the case and how he believed with absolute certainty that Adnan had killed Hae. Jay even expressed rage at the thought of Adnan pretending to be innocent. As he put it, "Who else could it have done it?" Who else indeed.
Please respond to the Discussion Questions below.
Discussion Questions:
1) How do each of Jay's versions of the events, the two in court and Chris's, treat the relationship between Adnan and Jay during the event of disposing of Hae's body? Explain.
2) What do you believe was said or happened during the “Black Hole Hours” and what significance do they hold?
3) Assuming that Adnan is guilty, which of Jay’s accounts do you believe is the closest to the truth (One of the two at the trials or the new one that he told Chris)?
4) If you had been a member of the jury, would Adnan’s decision to not testify on the stand have affected your decision, even with what the Judge said?
1. The different versions of events show that Jay had an important role in burying the Hae's body. A person who would be willing to help dispose of a body must be a close friend, so I think that this proves that Jay and Adnan must have been trusting friends. The fact that they went to McDonalds before they bury her and then simply dispose of the evidence after demonstrate that the burying of her body must not have had much of an affect on them.
ReplyDelete2. I think that the police may have done some pre questioning with Jay to help him understand what he would be asked. This could have helped him prepare a better story or help him realize that his timeline did not line up with other people's stories, resulting in his changing stories.
3. I believe that the second one told at trial is probably the most truthful because Chris is a second hand witness who may have made a mistake, and Jay may have been scared or nervous during the first testimony.
4. This would not have affected my decision because I know how common it is and sometimes it can hurt the defendant to testify, even when they are innocent, because prosecutors can trick defendants into apologizing or accepting responsibility. It is also not Adnan's job to prove he is innocent.
1. The different versions of the events show Adnan and Jay's relationship in completely different lights. The first version from Jay seemed to treat them as close friends, the second treated them as acquaintances, and the third showed Adnan almost bullying Jay into helping him. This makes a big difference.
ReplyDelete2. I think that nothing of significance really happened. If they had been telling him to change his story, it would have been obvious to the jury, and they would have decided differently.
3. I think that his first account was the closest to the truth. The Chris one seemed like it was from an outside perspective, while Jays first account seemed to make the most sense.
4. No it would not have. Not testifying is actually normal for that kind of case, so it should not have affected their decision at all.
1. All of Jay's version of the relationship between him and Adnan are similar. Jay describes their relationship as casual even during the actual act of murder. In some of the timelines they hang out together after the events going to places like Patapsco State Park and Forest Park.
ReplyDelete2. I think that Jay probably recounted his version of events to the cops, and the cops probably coached him on what to say during the recording. Due to this coaching, his version of events changed.
3. The first version of events is the most accurate probably, because when he told it, the events were freshest in his memory. I think that as his memory faded he began to make up details to fill in the gaps in his memory.
4. It would not have impacted my decision, because it is understandable from a legal standpoint why Adnan chose not to testify. The jury should not have held it against Adnan, because it was the best solution for him.
Jay's versions of the story make it sound as if they were the closest of friends. You have to be able to trust the person who is helping you to bury a dead body. On the other hand, Chris' story makes is sound like they were not close at all and Adnan had to use a form of blackmail to get help.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe anything major happened during those hours. The only thing I believe could be significant in that time is if that is when Jay started to realize that he messed up the time line and began to change things.
I would believe the version that Chris told because of the evidence that Asia provided earlier on. Asia places him in the right spot. Adnan would still need Jay, but they are not together much in Chris' story, therefore it could have taken the threats to get him to help.
No it would not have. I can understand why he would not want to testify. He wouldn't be helpful and he could get himself in trouble by saying the wrong thing or being tricked. If I was in his position I would also not want to have to face the jury or anyone else who had already made up their minds that I was guilty.
1) How do each of Jay's versions of the events, the two in court and Chris's, treat the relationship between Adnan and Jay during the event of disposing of Hae's body? Explain.
ReplyDeleteIn each case, Adnan calls Jay over to meet him. After this happens, Adnan wants Jay to help him dispose of the body. There was also the case of Adnan blackmailing Jay in order to force him to both help, and to never tell the police, or else Adnan would report all of Jay's crimes to the police as well.
2) What do you believe was said or happened during the “Black Hole Hours” and what significance do they hold?
I don't believe that anything of significance took place. I think this way because there wasn't much that could be done, besides maybe allowing for the events to start setting in with Jay.
3) Assuming that Adnan is guilty, which of Jay’s accounts do you believe is the closest to the truth (One of the two at the trials or the new one that he told Chris)?
I believe that Jay's account during the first interview is the closest to the truth, because Jay most likely twisted the truth when talking to Chris, so that he could have chris on his side. I also believe that he lied on his testimony at his second trial, because he had more time to collect himself and plan a way to not go to jail by framing Jay.
4) If you had been a member of the jury, would Adnan’s decision to not testify on the stand have affected your decision, even with what the Judge said?
I don't believe that it would have affected my decision. I would have still said that Jay did it by trying to frame Adnan.
1. I think that this event shows either that Jay and Adnan were closer friends then, or that Jay was either pressures or so shocked that he went with the flow. Burying a body with someone is not an event that one would take lightly, and for Jay to do so says something about the way the felt that night.
ReplyDelete2. I believe that the black hole hours could have been used to slowly mold Jay's opinion and sequence of events to match those of the detectives, and then they continued to influence him all throughout the case.
3. I think that Jay's first version of events is most likely the truest one, simply because the other two are explained by him attempting to reduce his role in the case. On a friend who would believe anything he told him, he would simply make something up. But in a court, he would try to keep the core the same while still attempting to reduce his role.
4. I wouls have liked to hear what Adnan had to say, but it's explaines in the next episode that he wasn't allowed to speak because it opened him up for cross-examination, which would have hurt his case because he had very little concrete evidence or memories of his alibis, and the court would have exposed that.
1. I think that all of Jay's stories, even though he claims they were not friends, show that Adnan and Jay were close enough for Adnan to tell him about the murder beforehand and request his help with hiding the body. Chris's story shows instead that Jay was forced into working with Adnan, and that he had no prior information. This seems much more likely, as Adnan went to Jay simply because he would be easy to force to help.
ReplyDelete2. I believe that the "Black Hole Hours" could have been used to get an idea of what Jay thought happened and structure the recorded interview around getting those points to be clear. Personally, unless there is a big conspiracy and the police helped Jay frame Adnan (No way that happened) I don't think the Black Hole Hours really matter.
3. I feel that if Chris's story was true then Jay would have told the police that story, since it incriminates Adnan far more than the two he told. That being said, I think that the second trial testimony would have been the truest one, as it is the one that the timeline works with the best.
4. I do not think that, as a member of the jury, Adnan not being there would have affected my decision. Knowing that this is common and that we already have his testimonies, his presence would be unnecessary and only further complicate matters.
1.) Both of Jay's stories portray the relationship between him and Adnan as close and casual. Based solely on Jay's testimony, one could reasonably picture their relationship as one where they hang out often, do many things together and generally enjoy each other's company.
ReplyDelete2.) I believe that the black hole hours were not incredibly significant. Jay was probably spoken to in order to get a baseline and prepare him for the recorded interview. The interviewers believed what they believed and would have wanted Jay's testimony to corroberate that, so they would have judged what he seemed to believe to help ask the right questions.
3.) In regards to Jay's stories, I believe that the first is the most true. This is due to the simple logic that at this point he had minimal time to prepare what he wanted to say. Now, it's fairly common knowledge that the best way to like, is to tell the truth. In other words, the more truth in your story, the easier it is to slip in falsities. With this first testimony, Jay would have stuck to the truth and bent it away for anything incriminating. In contrast, after this he would have time to decide more carefully what to leave in or out.
4.) Had I been on the jury, Adnan's lack of testimony at trial would not have raised any red flags. Anyone who has ever watched a cop show knows that lawyers love to tell their clients to be quiet as letting them speak is a huge liability regardless of their innocence. In fact, had I been a juror, I would be surprised to hear from Adnan at trial.
1. All the different versions of the story of that day paint a widely different picture of Adnan and Jay's relationship. Jay's original version makes it seem like Adnan trusted Jay, and that was why he relied on him to bury the body. In Chris's version, it makes it seem like Adnan was forcing Jay to do this and clearly blackmailing him.
ReplyDelete2. I believe that we could never possibly know what happened during the black hole hours. As their name suggests, no information from that time ever escapes to the public record. It's highly possible that the cops heard Jay's story, decided Adnan was guilty, then told Jay how to frame his story in a light that would make Adnan guiltiest. So if I had to imagine what happened during that time, that would be it. I also imagine Jay cooperated with the cops no matter what.
3. If Adnan were guilty, I would be conflicted as to what was the real truth. Judging off of Jay's statements and the fact that his story only shifted more and more, I would be inclined to believe his original story that was likely influenced the least. However, Chris's story seems the most believable on the surface. It explains what I thought to be the biggest hole in the case, which is 'why would Jay help'?
4. I believe that were I a jury, I would have not let my opinion be swayed by Adnan's lack of speaking. I believe that I would understand the judge's statement, and thus I would appreciate and respect Adnan's lack of testifying. However, I can not truly know how I would feel since I have been biased by this podcast.
1. I believe that Jay's stories show that he was friends with Adnan. Even if Adnan had threatened Jay into helping him, the fact that Jay did not tell anyone means that they were probably close and that Jay still did not want to backstab Adnan. Chris' story sheds light on the fact that Jay may have been forced to assist Adnan due to Adnan threatening Jay through Jay's weed usage.
ReplyDelete2. I think that the "Black Hole Hours" were used to better prepare Jay and set Jay's mind on a single topic. This would allow the police to get faster answers that they wanted and allow Jay to formulate a timeline. The setting of his mind on one single part of the crime may have also prevented him from becoming capable of thinking of other parts of the crime that may have been bad for the police to record that could contradict or incriminate someone else.
3. I think that Jay's second account would be most accurate as he would have had more time to think about the day. The story from Chris was an outside perspective meaning that he would not have known as much as Jay would have.
4. Adnan's lack of testification would not have changed my mind as it is very common for defendants to not want to testify as they can be tricked into apologizing which can be exploited or tricked into accidentally accepting guilt.
1) I think that these stories all show that Jay and Adnan were close enough for not onky Jay to go along with burying the body, but close enough that Adnan called him to help in the first place. It was obvious that Jay would assume that Adnan killed Hae, but Adnan trusted him anyway.
ReplyDelete2) I have no way of telling or even guessing what was said during that time, but at minimal I would guess that the police tried to lead Jay into confessing if he knew anything that would help their case. Figuring out whether Jay was an ally or an enemy.
3) Jays original interviews and testimonies would be closest to the real story as if Chris was a friend, it is likely that Jay emelished to him to make himself sound more in the right ie. Adnan threatened his girlfriend and blackmailed him.
4) Yes and no. While it is common and the judge testified to that fact, I can see why it would be a little unsettling for him not to be there as the jurors had never witnessed a murder trial before. I would like to say that I would stay partial and I belive that I may in that situation, I can not personally attest to the feeling of deciding the fate of a teenage kid on murder charges with a lack of reasonable evidence and the boy at trial isn't even there.
1. While Jay story does change a lot the more he tells it, one thing that seemed to be relatively consistent is that he helped dispose of Hae's body. This makes me think that he was definitely involved regardless of who killed her because he is so consistent with that detail.
ReplyDelete2. During the interview where Jay wasn't recorded, I think the police were trying to make sure he had his story straight before the recording started. This plan kind of backfired since Jay's story ended up being so inconsistent.
3. Since I do not believe that Adnan is the one who killed Hae, none of his versions seem particularly truthful to me, but if I had to choose, the first story should be closest to the truth since it was told closest to the day that the murder actually occurred.
4. It would depend on what he had to say. While it is common for the accused to not take the stand in their own trial, every case is different and I believe his testimony would have influenced jurors
1. All the versions of the story show Jay and Adnan’s relationship in a different light. However it is undeniable that their relationship is close because Adnan actually had enough trust in Jay to admit his murder. Although Chris’ version paints their relationship in a negative tone, I need to wonder, why Jay? Sure in the story, it was because burying a body seemed like a thing Jay would do, but for Adnan to show an acquaintance a dead body is highly unlikely.
ReplyDelete2. Like Sarah Koenig had said, that was probably when every information the defense needed was revealed. The police probably asked Jay all the same exact questions and that helped Jay prepare for the recording. I think the “Black hole hours” helped Jay solidify his story and make sure his story would prove Adnan was the murder.
3. I think Jay’s story during testimony would be the closest to the truth. I don’t trust his first interview because Jay and Adnan’s trip to Patapsco State Park does not fit the timeline and also because Jay completely took that trip out during his testimony. I do not think the Chris story is close to the truth because I honestly don’t believe Adnan would blackmail his drug dealer that he was not close to. If Adnan was friends with Stephenie, I definitely think that he and Jay would have a stronger relationship than acquaintances. Therefore, that leaves Jay’s testimony in court for the closest to the truth.
4. No it would not have. I would actually consider the different possibilities to why he would not testify and trust the judges comment on how it was common for potentially innocent people to not testify. The judges comment is completely accurate and I would have listened to them. I would realize that if Adnan was innocent, it would hurt his case if he went up during cross examination and answered with unsure answers because he could not remember the day.
1) Jay's recollections show the spontaneous nature of the events and paint Adnan's behavior as violent and spastic. During the interviews, Jay often mentioned the different ways in which Adnan was blackmailing him and forcing him into helping dispose of any evidence. In summary, Jay emphasizes that he wanted nothing to do with the murder and that Adnan was generally seen as a threat.
ReplyDelete2) Jay likely gave a brief summary of the events so the police could have a vague idea of what happened (who, what, where, when, why, and how). This conversation would serve as a preface to the more thorough recorded discussions that would follow.
3) I think Jay's account during the initial interview would be the most accurate. There's a chance he altered information or held back on some important points during his testimony, since he may have been more selective in terms of what information was presented (only presenting information that would strengthen the prosecutor's case).
4) I would have trusted the word of the Judge. After all, they definitely would have more experience in court than I would've at the time. Especially considering the fact that he's only a high schooler and he's facing such incriminating charges, it shouldn't be a surprise he didn't want to testify. I know that I would definitely be afraid to testify in that situation...